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Fw: "OpEd" on Marine Urination Video

Forwarded.
----- Original Message ----- From: Dave Hollenbeck 
To: undisclosed-recipients:
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2012 4:54 AM
Subject: "OpEd" on Marine Urination Video


http://www.michaelyon-online.com/marine-urination-video-some-thoughts.htm



18 January 2012
The bad judgment exercised by a handful of Marines should be treated like an ND: a Negligent Discharge. In the US military, if you “accidentally” pull the trigger and launch an unplanned bullet downrange, you should not even bother trying to explain away the “accident.” If that bullet kills someone, it’s called Negligent Homicide. The bullet did not fire accidentally; it was fired negligently. Bottom line.
This should be treated like a negligent discharge of the penis, and of the video camera, and then of common sense. What a dumb thing to do. And super dumb to video tape it. And ultra-dumb to then let the video make it to the Internet.
Those few Marines should be busted, but they don’t deserve prison. They made a big-league mess up, but they did not commit murder. They were young men in combat who committed stupid. But how many of us who have reached the age of 30 cannot look back and find at least a dozen instances of major league stupidity that we committed? Most of us are lucky that our dumbness did not make it to the Internet.
And that commander… Sheesh. He should be busted for all the distraction this has brought. 

Punish them, but do not tar them.  Do not send them to prison.





Comments
+3# Killing them is OK, but peeing will get you in trouble? — Paul 2012-01-17 23:00 It's a little screwy - you can pump them full of lead & they are dead, and a bloody mess, but peeing on them is desecration? 
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+1# RE: Killing them is OK, but peeing will get you in trouble? — The Proud Infidel 2012-01-18 01:04 
Quoting Paul:
It's a little screwy - you can pump them full of lead & they are dead, and a bloody mess, but peeing on them is desecration? 

It's not like they used hollow points with bacon bits in the tips!
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+3# RE: Marine Urination Video: Some Thoughts — Darius 2012-01-17 23:01
couldn't agree with you more
I don't see how the Afghans are disgusted by this when their behaviour has been shown to be equally bad, if not worse. 
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+2# RE: RE: Marine Urination Video: Some Thoughts — IronV 2012-01-18 00:44
It's not a rational argument. The Afghans tolerate inhuman atrocities committed by their own but are aggregiously offended by infractions committed by Americans. That's just the way it is... 
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0# RE: RE: RE: Marine Urination Video: Some Thoughts — Eli32 2012-01-18 02:20 Agreed.... But plenty of precedent for this, and plenty of reason to say we should be better. Example: When abolitionists visited Africa in the 1850s to drum up support for a petition outlawng all slavery, they found that the locals 'agreed' that it was inhumane to be subject to slavery --- but they had no problem enslaving members of another tribe. Their morals were not the same as the Westerners --- they just didn't want their own tribesman to be subject to slavery, but had no moral revulsion to the concept. NONETHELESS, the Western revulsion to slavery and efforts to end it are something that we SHOULD be proud of. Similarly, agreed that many of the more primitive Afghans have no true MORAL outrage with atrocities --- they just don't want to be on the recieving end. Nonetheless, Western morals would say that this treatment of the dead is repulsive. 
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0# RE: RE: RE: RE: Marine Urination Video: Some Thoughts — Eli32 2012-01-18 02:21 By the way, the idea of not mistreating a corpse is in the Old Testament (Deuteronomy), where judges are commanded to not allow an executed man to remain hanging through the night. The Western concpt of human dignity (which started in teh Bible) allows that sometimes taking of a life is in fact necessary, but that even in death the person deserves dignity.....
Having said all that, war is dehumanizing. It appears that the soldiers involved don't meet the highest standards of according dignity to the dead, but who knows how seeing all that carnage would have affected any of us??? 
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+7# RE: Marine Urination Video: Some Thoughts — Kurt Olney 2012-01-17 23:16
The enemy cuts off the heads of infidels in front of cameras and desecrates and burns and hangs bodies of the infidel. And they celebrate. The enemy does not wear wear uniforms.
The big question is why is the behavior of the Marines going to piss our enemy off any more than our enemy is already pissed off at us? And our Islamist enemies believe all infidels should die? 

We won WWII by bombing the hell out of Germans and the Japanese.

Our enemy is laughing at us about our rules of engagement.
And where is C.A.I.R. when Islamist behead and mutilate etc. etc. etc. No objections from them!! 
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+1# Don't over think — Kelly 2012-01-17 23:19
Put a letter in their records and then split them up through out the Corps.
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+5# CPL/USMC — The Proud Infidel 2012-01-17 23:35
When a Marine tells you he is going to piss on your grave, you'd better believe he means it! 
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+2# RE: Marine Urination Video: Some Thoughts — Valerie 2012-01-17 23:39
The person with the camera should have been separated from it, and the incident forgotten. It may have been bad manners, but this is a war...... 
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+5# RE: Marine Urination Video: Some Thoughts — dsp 2012-01-17 23:41
What these Marines needed (and lacked) was a squad-leader or Platoon Sergeant that knows the meaning of "What happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas." This is a training failure; nothing more. 
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+4# RE: Marine Urination Video: Some Thoughts — pacific_waters 2012-01-17 23:43 "Those few Marines should be busted," Oh contraire. They should receive promotions. We need to stop pussyfooting around and fight a war like a war needs to be fought, all out. Why should we show respect for an enemy that shows none? And please, don't fall back on the garbage excuse that we don't to become our enemy. Pissing on a corpse is not in the same league as the violations the taliban inflict. War is hell and he sooner we admit and stop trying to make it less so the sooner we will be able to prosecute a war when it's necessary and actually WIN the damn thing. 
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0# RE: RE: Marine Urination Video: Some Thoughts — IronV 2012-01-18 00:46
I understand the emotion and the sentiment. But with all respect, you're dead wrong on every count. If we become them, we lose. Big time. And in far more ways than one... 
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+4# (former SGT) — Rob Hise-Denk 2012-01-17 23:50
The fact that this happened is a problem with their command. I think that the best solution is one I've seen used in a variety of ways...if you screw something up, you become responsible for educating your buddies and making sure it doesn't happen again. If you get a DUI, you should get a metric crapton of extra CQ duty and part of that duty should be shuttling drunk people home. If you piss on your enemy, you should be required to do something that develops your sense of being a civilized warrior rather than being a savage. Any which way, I agree that these are just stupid-ass kids and prison isn't justified. 
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+1# RE: Marine Urination Video: Some Thoughts — xoxoxoBruce 2012-01-17 23:51
The whole culture of the military, of the war, is you're not fighting people. you are fighting enemy combatants, Huns, Nazis, japs, Gooks, Slopes, etc, but never people. And they don't suddenly become people when they're dead. It's hard to remember that, sitting in your easy chair seeing this on TV. 
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0# Think about this — Mr. Richard 2012-01-18 00:12
Sorry Gents,
The "after-combat" actions viewed were nothing more than young soilders being "relieved" that they were not dead like their enemy who had tried to kill them over the length of said battle. WHAT!!??? War is not a most vile/needed act? Then you soft-skinned hallow civilians should look away and not bother yourself with comment on deeds that YOU pay your military to do. THEY are the ones that must step up to the task at hand, not you. So what they do is not for your comment OR JUDGEMENT! THEY are this country's sheepdogs. THEY are the "rough men with guns on the wall" so we might sleep in comfort in our beds at night. How dare we even comment. How dare we even attempt to defile. This is WAR! Now STEP BACK!!! 
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+5# RE: Marine Urination Video: Some Thoughts — Warren 2012-01-18 00:15
As a former Marine I am disgusted by these actions. If reflects negatively on the Corps and the US. I agree with Mr. Yon in that these men (I hate to even call them Marines) should be driven out of the service or at the very least busted down in rank.
Comments in this thread and others talk about what the Taliban or Iraqis do to our people. If our fighting men and women are considered equals then yes that they have done is not so bad. I happen to hold them and our military in higher regard. Shame on you that do not expect more from our troops. 

Our troops are held to a higher standard and they should be.

Semper Fi
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0# RE: RE: Marine Urination Video: Some Thoughts — IronV 2012-01-18 00:47
Dead spot on. Salute!!!!!!!!! !!!
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0# Bad timing, that — Richardg 2012-01-18 00:30
I agree with both Mr. Richard and Warren.
My only additional comment is that their timing was off. Should have first pissed on them, then beat them with a shoe, and THEN ... 
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+3# RE: Marine Urination Video: Some Thoughts — dsp 2012-01-18 00:57
I'm a former Marine. I've never been shot at.
I'm inclined to give the benefit of the doubt to folks that have bullets whizzing over their heads on a regular basis. I suspect there's something unique about being in fear for your life. 

Honestly, I've see worse from college kids.
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+1# RE: Marine Urination Video: Some Thoughts — Mary 2012-01-18 01:37
Under Sharia law, which enforces Islamic principles, non-Muslims who do not show respect for Muslims have committed crimes and the whole non-Muslim community can be "punished." Our military needs to enforce its own reasonable U.S. military discipline and NOT be bullied into enforcing Sharia law on the troops. The Commander-in-Chief of our military (Obama) needs to STOP enforcing Sharia law and start living up to his oath of office wherein he swore to uphold the U.S. Constitution. 
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+1# LOC and move on — John-Capt in ANG 2012-01-18 02:17
Seems it is an opportunity to rap their leadership on the knuckles, give the junior enlisted a LOC (Letter of Counseling) and move on. No one condones it, but also, it is Marines being Marines. When you see death everyday, I've noticed their "sense of humor" changes. I'm sure it's the same in LAPD's murder section or the LA Morgue. They just went a little too far and were dumb enough to YouTube the video.
This is why when people say, "I'd love to be in high school nowadays," I respond, "You've crazy." Half of what we did is now treated nearly like a felony and with the Internet, it would haunt you the rest of your life. 
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0# RE: Marine Urination Video: Some Thoughts — Barry Sheridan 2012-01-18 03:21 This is just another example of the western media's double standards. A case of poor judgement by a handful is laid bare and universally condemned. Yet rarely do we hear about the routine persecution of Christians, or the constant use of the pejorative,'infidels' to anyone who is not a Moslem in anyway other than just an incidental manner. As for exposing the everyday murders committed by Islamic extemists for their perverted reasons, well we would not want our media friends to do that would we, that's a nothing compared to urinating on the dead, the ultimate in criminality!!!! How I loathe the upside down world of modern journalists. 
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0# RE: Marine Urination Video: Some Thoughts — Jesse 2012-01-18 05:05
Their only crime was they got caught. This calls for an article 15 nothing more. You'll notice that the "outrage" has faded from the front page.
The Taliban were laughing their asses off at the stupid Americans wasting so much energy over this when they were planning where to put the next IED to blow the legs, arms and genitals off the next Chazry Clark. If I was their Gunny I'd knock them up side the head in front of the CO and buy'm a beer at the club after hours. 

Don't mean nuthin' as we used to say in the Nam.
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0# Punishment — Nils 2012-01-18 05:29
Since they seem to enjoy playing with excrements, they should be sent to clean latrines for a month or two, and that would be that. No need to turn this into an international drama. 
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0# Taliban Have No Rights — Tom McKeon 2012-01-18 07:15
Firstly, they should have had better sense than to record it. But let us not forget the Taliban have NO rights under the Geneva Accords. They are a non flag entity that is to be killer.
In Vietnam we use to leave the bodies on the wire for a day as a warning to their friends of what is waiting for them. They too were not in uniform and our government refused to admit we were fighting North Vietnamese after TET of 68. In Afghanistan we are fighting a war against Moslem fanatics not a flag nation, they have no rights. 
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